Typo and a Drive question

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Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:05 am

Typo:
The steam overlay isn't working for me. No big deal. But no screenshots. Found a typo, here's a cell cam shot.

https://copy.com/jVByX0CCC3jIhEpG

(I think you meant "there.")

Drive question:
Is there a drive in the game that will let me pilot like in SPAZ? WASD for thrust in those directions as opposed to the point and push model?

Notes:
I LOVE the real-time research system. That is just brilliant.
The dialog has made me lol4r a couple times. I'm kind of grumpy so kudos on that.
Having a lot of fun. Smile

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  EvilNinjadude on Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:04 am

Innomen wrote:https://copy.com/jVByX0CCC3jIhEpG

(I think you meant "there.")
Nooo! How could I have missed that!

Innomen wrote:Drive question:
Is there a drive in the game that will let me pilot like in SPAZ? WASD for thrust in those directions as opposed to the point and push model?
Sadly, there isn't. It's a design decision to have unidirectional thrust, and the game is built around that. However, directional input IS present in the form of Archetype abilities... these, however, are abilities and will feel like such. Some good archetype movement abilities are found in the Fighter Archetype's Agile Drive.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:08 am

That's a shame. It creates a feeling of distance. Like my ship is remote control, as opposed to a part of me.

Regardless of "design" you should consider adding this input method as either a menu input choice (like the steering vs direct mouse) or make it a general engine type.

Also given the top down 2D, almost wire frame, nature of the graphics you should also be thinking about an in game ship builder.

Stratosphere conquest of the skies had an interesting system for this that no one has since repeated or improved on.
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/08/stratosphere-a-game-where-cannon-toting-floating-islands-battled-for-the-skies/

While Warheads had a similar system for weapon's creation.
http://www.warheads.net/

You've already made it clear that you don't mind overtly lifting and blending elements from other games. I say seriously consider my suggestions. After 15+ years of gaming experience during the golden age of gaming generally, I can absolutely tell you the elements required to build a game that will last for all time.

You've already accomplished the hard parts, foot in the door, and story/feel. Now all you need is to add the options.

You should also consider a hanger/fleet system like in SPAZ. (Nero could pilot them.)

Something that is missing from ARPGs generally is the ability to create multiple characters. Dungeon siege in particular needed this.

I'm rambling. I'll just stop there.

Edit: Also you're going to have to choose between paper rock scissors multiplayer balance (like FPS games), where there is ultimately no meaningful possible difference between ships, or true customization in which case basically one or two builds will come to dominate pvp.

I vote the latter. PC gaming has enough ultra fine tuned versions of paper rock scissors. What it still doesn't have is a game for space based weapon's designers. (What kids like me did with lego. Build space ships and robots and have them blow each other up.)

The closer you get to that freedom and feel the more lasting this game will be over the extreme long term.

That warheads SE game for example is still being played today despite being little more than a gorillas clone, precisely because space ships and totally custom weapons. It allows you to take real pride in your victories and ships. (Like SPORE tried to do with lifeforms.)

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Paul Dryere on Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:45 pm

I'll get that typo fixed in the patch after the upcoming one, since I've already uploaded the next patch.

In regards to the movement, adding an option to pilot with side/reverse thrusters would not only change the balance of the entire game, it would require AI and networking to be reworked. We prefer this control scheme and believe that once mastered, it makes for more interesting dog fights.

A ship builder, while a good idea, would require huge amounts of work to properly implement. It isn't something I would rule out all together, but I can't implement it any time soon.

We had thought about being able to create your own warheads for rockets early in design. We settled for having several passive equipment parts that would modify all abilities of a given type. Mods that add snares or shield siphoning to all your rockets for example.

The multiplayer is already balanced fairly well. There are several builds that are completely viable at the highest end of play. Some will have edges over others, but with Auxiliary Bays allowing you to change hulls in a match, you can always find a viable counter.

Also I think the Steam Overlay has been down for everyone, Steam apparently got DDOSed.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:27 pm

Ahhh, the age old refrain... "balance" Smile

I guess this, like every other multiplayer game, will asymptotically approach paper rock scissors as "balance" gets refined to reward time investment. A natural consequence of more involved players becoming influential due to exposure, expertise, and seniority.

Want to see the future? http://www.umop.com/rps25.htm

Oh well, eventually the relevant patents will expire, or we'll get sanity based IPL reform, and I'll be able to code/mod via speech. I just hope I live that long Smile

I'll just have to wait a couple decades for my golden open source holodeck mashup of SPAZ/SC2/Stratosphere/Warheads/Freelancer/Spore/Bloodlines Smile

Fortunately, as awful, anachronistic, and jarring as bottle rocket propulsion is in a deep future Sci-Fi universe where the main character is supposed to be able to manipulate spacetime with a thought, at least I can build a ship that basically doesn't have to move in the first place. Go Arsenal.

Indeed, I suppose it's possible to build a ship that only moves via teleportation and inertial dampeners. I wonder if the game will let me enter battle without an engine. If not I could always pick my engine based on other factors, and remap the thrust button. Engaging in battle via drones, turrets, stealth, homing rockets, heavy armor/shields, etc. And for that I'm very thankful. (Indeed such options sealed the deal for me when purchase time rolled around.) Especially in a multiplayer game.

My pillbox/fortress/auto turret configuration in SPAZ I assumed was not patched out, only because that game is single player and thus logically immune to whining about balance. No doubt fighting such a build would prove "cheap" and frustrating to COD era twitch gamers that are content to die 40 times a match so long as they made 41 kills, and want a completely flat customization curve in order to maximize the value of their autonomic skillset. As is human nature.

Anyway, I thank you for your time and consideration. Though I won't thank you for making the game. Having people consume your art as well as pay for for it is thanks enough in that regard. (Indeed too much in my opinion, since as a writer I give away my work on ethical grounds. But I can hardly blame you for cashing in on a social policy exploit derived from the speed difference between technological evolution and legal or social policy evolution.) As a writer I'm rewarded enough in my opinion when I find evidence of having been read at all. In my opinion, to demand money from them as well would be the height of arrogance and clear example of biting the hand that feeds me, or no good deed going unpunished.

But your writing is of a technical and interactive nature currently mysterious magical and incomprehensible to the majority, so you get a social pass. Besides, people love psychopathic behavior. Just look at how enduringly popular Dexter, Hannibal, and gangster movies are. Hell, we still like hearing about Caligula and Nero. And of course look how much power and reward we give psychopathic CEOs politicians and fiscal wizards. (The Waltons for example are worth ~26 Billion, each.)

Some relevant quotes Smile

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." ~John Steinbeck

"This town loves a winner." ~Map to the Stars Eddie, Escape from L.A.

"The world loves a bastard." ~A. Rimmer, Red Dwarf

"He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody" ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to to Isaac McPherson, 1813

I can only assume if given the option I'd cash in as well. Everyone has their price, but for now I’m powerless and poor enough to indulge my ethics. I'd like to think I'd be an exception, and of course I desire the chance to prove it, but realistically perhaps it's better that I not be.

Assuming I'm a tenth as smart of some people tell me I am, perhaps the risk is too great. Perhaps the last thing the world needs is an evil and well funded version of me.

Perhaps it's a good thing that I'm stuck in a corner rambling about the sociology of video games and the ethics of intellectual property law...

I'm off to play a few more peanut butter cup powered missions. Smile

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Paul Dryere on Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:14 pm

I quite enjoyed reading your post.  Smile

Ultimately, we would love for our game to be free to everyone. However, in order to continue improving it and creating new games we do need an income. Clearly financial gain is not our primary goal as we would have made a much more accessible and less niche title. We started off by trying to make the game we wanted to play. Then we realized how incredibly difficult it was to make that game from scratch, and thus had to rein a couple of elements in.

We decided not to make it free to play, as we think the monetization scheme for free to play games almost always end up hindering the enjoyment of the game.

I think you have the ability to be well funded and a good person.  Smile I say take the risk.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:53 pm

"I think you have the ability to be well funded and a good person."

Perhaps. I'm always looking. Smile

However, in order to continue improving it and creating new games we do need an income.

Well, I have a response to that as well: http://underlore.com/one-possible-solution/

And besides, while you may indeed need an income, I think making money from your art is a privilege not a right. I'll let a much more popular writer respond Smile

http://torrentfreak.com/how-shall-the-artists-get-paid-isnt-a-question-its-an-insult-130818/

In any case, I hope you seriously consider my suggestions here and elsewhere. This game has the potential to be a game changer. Pardon the cumbersome syntax.

Related discussion: http://steamcommunity.com/app/258010/discussions/0/630800446495776447/?tscn=1388780635

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Paul Dryere on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:31 pm

We give all feedback serious thought, the game is better for it.

If it brings you any comfort, the amount of hours my brother and I put into the game, versus the amount of money made, puts us well below minimum wage. The truth is, while we do like to view the game as a piece of art, it is also how we hope to keep a roof over our heads and food in our bellies.  Razz

I haven't been able to access the forums on steam since yesterday, I'll try and take a look at it as soon as I can.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:43 pm

Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to do well. And the kinder they are with their power and wealth the more of it I want them to have. I'm only speaking in general terms. I almost always do. I was happy to pay for my copy before and even more after you sent the steam key.

No rush on the steam view, I appreciate you taking the time Smile

Good luck. Smile

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  EvilNinjadude on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:51 pm

Innomen wrote:Regardless of "design" you should consider adding this input method as either a menu input choice (like the steering vs direct mouse) or make it a general engine type.
That's not how it works you... oh well, it seems you guys have moved on without me.
Paul Dryere wrote:I quite enjoyed reading your post. Smile
So did I, good writing, but without typos.
Innomen wrote:Having people consume your art as well as pay for for it is thanks enough in that regard.
Oh no, not the Videogames Are Art thing again! pale 

Eh, I'm just kidding. The reality is that, while art nowadays can take anything from days to months to produce, Videogames usually take a year or more. And they take more time to fully absorb as well.
Innomen, what do you think of Bestsellers in bookstores? We could go with the art argument, and say that the books should be free. Or we could go with an economical argument and say that, capitalistically (this is now a word) the books should have a royalty to encourage more people to write such good books. Or we could just not argue at all and just sit marvel at the strange beliefs of the other people in this thread.

I read that you're waiting for your One True Game. High standards aren't a bad thing, and as TotalBiscuit said, don't shout at people for having high standards, but having expectations be consistently too high will make your life an unhappy one. I somehow don't get tired of expecting the worst, so I am always happy when my expectations are exceeded. Perhaps it is I who is strange.

Was fun reading your posts though. Don't remember you being quite as elaborate on the SPAZ forums.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:20 am

EvilNinjadude wrote:Was fun reading your posts though. Don't remember you being quite as elaborate on the SPAZ forums.

You sure? I'm a universally mouthy bastard as far as I can tell Razz

www.spacepiratesandzombies.com&safe=off#q=innomen+site:www.spacepiratesandzombies.com&safe=off" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Spaz Forum Google Search

I can't get this link to display properly on my end... ^ The search term I used was "innomen site:www.spacepiratesandzombies.com"

Thank you though, I'm glad you enjoy my rant/rambles.

As for the IPL question, I'm what you'd call an abolitionist. And I want to stress that my solution is designed to work in conjunction with other social policy changes, most specifically the (linked) universal basic income.

IPL was never about protecting profit margins.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftorrentfreak.com%20%22copyright%20monopoly%22&=&=&oq=&gs_l=&psj=1

I could provide more citation on this subject than you could consume in a year of dedicated study. (No snark.)

I've reached a point where I know that virtually no one could reasonably be expected to catch up, yet no one has a reason to take my word for anything. So, I just speak my mind and play video games and rant when the opportunity presents itself and hope that my little push on the boulder joins with all the others and gets it rolling a little faster. Smile

As the author of a book that was until very recently on smashwords under a pay what you want model (starting at zero) I can safely say my money is where my mouth is. Code is just another kind of writing, and the only kind of ownership of data released to the public I endorse is creation credit.

That's the only sane way to operate in a world where people will eventually be downloading memory direct to devices.

In a world saturated by "owned" intellectual content simply playing back a memory becomes a crime. I don't think free culture should operate on an ever expanding delay. Patents and copyright have clearly come to serve as innovation inhibitors.

The profit motive argument is completely baseless.

Sidenote: I had this discussion with the SPAZ devs also and they ceased speaking to me over it. :/ But to their credit they didn't ban me from the forum :)If you would like I'm happy to shut up about it now, I've certainly had my say :)And besides the facts are a Google search away. If anyone is really interested in challenging their beliefs in line with rigorous Critical Thinking, it's literally at their fingertips.

And like I said, I'm sure I have my price. If suddenly I had the option of doing something 80% of society said was perfectly fair and it meant I could have a life with an income, I'd almost certainly rationalize whatever I had to. I'm only human.

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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  EvilNinjadude on Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:38 am

I agree that optional payment is a wonderful thing, and I've seen the Humble Bundle sales, or even stuff just financially based on donations -- but with digital content, it's a matter of exposure, something I've seen firsthand with this game. If not enough people know something exists, then whether they'd be willing to pay for it doesn't really matter. And Steam, apparently, is currently Greenlighting far too much stuff without giving each the necessary exposure to get itself a firm following on steam itself.
At least we're not as far behind as Nintendo, or other companies who're now going LOL COPYRIGHT CLAIM on everyone's videos.

Innomen wrote:And like I said, I'm sure I have my price. If suddenly I had the option of doing something 80% of society said was perfectly fair and it meant I could have a life with an income, I'd almost certainly rationalize whatever I had to. I'm only human.
Heh, so would I. Within limits, of course: If it goes against my ethics, I don't think I'd be comfortable, and I'm not sure right now if I would do it or look for some other way to earn my living. But I'm sure gratuitous violence and injustice wasn't what you were gong for.
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Re: Typo and a Drive question

Post  Innomen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:25 pm

"but with digital content, it's a matter of exposure"

Agreed. The best way to get that is to get people playing and keep them playing. Make the game awesome and long-term fun, then the exposure comes from the players.

"But I'm sure gratuitous violence and injustice wasn't what you were gong for."

No, but at first, but the slippery slope is what worries me. I plan to live a long long time.


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